Links to Learn More
- Listen to Part One here.
- Read Nishta’s book, Brown White Black: An American Family at the Intersection of Race, Gender, Sexuality, and Religion
- Learn more about Nishta’s work here
- Fostering Inequity: How COVID-19 Amplifies Dangers for LGBTQ+ Youth in Care
- Philanthropy OUTlook: LGBTQ Black Communities
- Ending Discrimination Under the Biden Administration
More Outspoken Voices Episodes
Episode Transcript
Emily McGranachan:
Welcome to Outspoken Voices. I’m Emily McGranachan, Director of Corporate and Foundation Relations with Family Equality
Dakota Fine:
And I’m Dakota Fine, the resident Family Equality Video Producer and Storyteller.
Emily McGranachan:
Dakota! Happy 2021! It’s here.
Dakota Fine:
Oof. Came in like a ton of bricks.
Emily McGranachan:
Yes, yes, it really did. Yeah. I know I wanted to be able to do a celebratory new year opening to this episode and also January 6th happened. And so it is both hopeful, joyful, and devastating all at once.
Dakota Fine:
Yeah, yeah. I think, uh, it’s definitely a dark chapter for American history. What a historic day we all witnessed. Yikes.
Emily McGranachan:
Yikes. Yup. That is the word. Yes. Well, we wanted to recognize that at the start of the episode and also say that that’s not what we’re talking about today. Uh, we actually recorded this lovely conversation back in November. So millennia ago, and our guests were Nishta and Tatiana who actually both had been guests together in a previous episode. And they were so fantastic and had such great insights and stories that we really wanted them to come back. And so in this episode, Nishta and Tati dive deeper into how adoption factors into their family stories and how discrimination and unequal systems of parental recognition really do continue to harm our families. So it is an episode of joy and love and also challenges.
Dakota Fine:
I was struck that both are people who adopted in the Southern United States. So I think Florida and Texas, I was struck by some of the anecdotes that they relayed to us, uh, Tati told us that her partner, Jen, who is the gestational carrier, had to complete a background check in order for Tati to adopt. And in the case of Nishta and Jill, the lawyer recommended to Jill that she not show up to the initial adoption hearing in Texas, so as to not tip them off, that this was an LGBTQ adoption. Things have changed a lot, but these are the stories we hear time and time again from adoptive parents.
Emily McGranachan:
So before we get to the joy and love of hearing their beautiful family stories in the episode, we talk about foster care and adoption and LGBTQ+ families and how we all intersect together. And so I wanted to just give you some fast facts. Did you know that up to a quarter of youth currently in foster care identify as LGBTQ+, which is significantly higher than the general population? It’s serious over-representation. There are also around 400,000 young people currently in the foster care system in the United States and every year around 17,000 young adults age out of the foster care system, without being placed with adult caregivers who can provide that permanent home base in those relationships for them, that’s thousands of young people. And at the same time, same-sex couples are seven times more likely to foster and adopt than different-sex couples. So we have a need—we have a system that is just deeply broken in many different ways—but we have this need and still 11 states explicitly allow agencies, foster care agencies, to turn away these prospective foster and adoptive parents (who are seven times more likely to foster and adopt) and to discriminate against the youth in care. It is a system that is not working
Dakota Fine:
Youth in foster care are disproportionately likely to be LGBTQ+. They are also disproportionately prone to suicide and self-harm and LGBTQ+ prospective parents are disproportionately likely to adopt these youth. So, you know, we could have a whole lesson on the word disproportionate, I guess, and what that means, but wow. Yeah.
Emily McGranachan:
Nishta and Tati really help guide us through some of their own personal stories and their expertise about what does all of this really mean for LGBTQ+ families and youth in care and laws in general that recognize parental relationships. Hopefully, folks will be moved by their stories, be inspired to take some action and we’ll share show notes and information with other resources, things to read up on, and also ways to get involved with Family Equality and the Every Child Deserves a Family campaign, which is working to make these fundamental changes and to get that work started to be fixing this broken system.
Emily McGranachan:
So I’m gonna just jump right in with our first question and one of my favorite questions: who is in your family and how was it formed? And then, in particular, given this episode’s focus, how does adoption focus into your family story? Tati, will you tell us a little bit about your family?
Tatiana Quiroga:
Sure. So my name is Tatiana Quiroga. My pronouns are she/Ella. My family consists of myself, my wife, Jen, and our two kiddos. We have a four-year-old named Gabriel and a nine-year-old name, Lukas. Jen and I were actually married—today’s our anniversary, so—11 years ago today. At the time that was before marriage equality, so we went to Massachusetts and then, later on, came back down to Florida to have a, um, a party with our, with our friends and family. So we’ve been married for quite some time. And, uh, shortly after we had gotten married, um, it was actually my wife that was like, let’s have babies. And I thought she had lost her mind. And finally, she was persistent enough to get me to change my mind. And we started trying to conceive. She is the bio parent and the gestational carrier.
Tatiana Quiroga:
So I obviously am the non-bio parent/non-gestational carrier, which means that I had to actually adopt both of our boys, which the first one again was before marriage equality. And he was conceived via IUI after several tries. And I had to do a second-parent adoption on him. At the time, there was a loophole in the state of Florida that, you know, wasn’t necessarily on board fully with same-sex adoption and LGBTQ families. We found a little wiggle room that allowed me to go ahead and do a second-parent adoption. And that was a really interesting process because it was almost as if I was adopting any other child. It did not acknowledge at all that I was part of the conception process from picking a donor to us having been together years before that. We had to do the home study and the background check and all of that.
Tatiana Quiroga:
And I was kind of, you know, I joked with her where I’m like she even had to do a background check—despite the fact she was the bio parent and she was living in the home. So it was a, you know, it was a very expensive, lengthy process that, you know, allowed for us to, you know, legally become a family. And also too, we ran the risk being in Florida that we were going to get some pushback from local court. And we did, we did have a scare with the original, uh, judge that we were assigned who had some very historic cases against LGBTQ people. So for a hot minute there, we thought we were going to have to go to North Dakota because they were one of the only States that didn’t have any residency laws or requirements. So that was kind of a scary point in that whole entire process and, you know, and a frustrating one because obviously there was no close—
Tatiana Quiroga:
We were definitely very far from any kind of equality or even being recognized as a family at that point. So that was my oldest. And then a couple of years later, we started trying again and after a very long, long journey—Family-building is…Regardless of how you go about building your family, LGBTQ family formation is a process and an up and down rollercoaster of sacrifices and heartache and expenses and all those kinds of things. So, so our second came along via IVF. And again, my wife being the bio parent and gestational carrier this time he was after marriage equality. So I was able to just do a step-parent adoption, and that was a much easier process. And, you know, we, we still hired an attorney, but it’s paperwork that is pretty accessible to, to all, um, to all families. Uh, you know, it does obviously have a couple, you know, some fees to it.
Tatiana Quiroga:
Um, but it’s definitely much more accessible than the first option. And so, you know, now we’re, we’re very big advocates of, of really encouraging families to go, you know, take that extra step. We see that lots of families, lots of times just stop because they think that, you know, both parents are, their names are on the birth certificate and don’t realize that really at the end of the day, the birth certificate doesn’t protect your family. Adoption guarantees that I actually have legal rights to my boys and that my boys are protected and the courts recognize our family. You know, it, it hurts a little bit to realize that you have this third party having to verify and having to justify your family, which is something that…We know we’re a family. So yeah, that’s our story.
Emily McGranachan:
Thank you. Nishta, who is in your family? And how was it formed?
Nishta Mehra:
So my family was first formed when I met my wife, Jill. We’ve been together 18 and a half years now and like Tati and her wife, we were not able to be legally married until after the Obergefell decision. We wanted to get married in the place where we lived. We felt pretty strongly about that because we were living in Texas at the time that wasn’t possible until June of 2015. So we got married on July 2nd, 2015, six days after the decision came down. Prior to that in 2012, our daughter was born. Her birth mom picked us to be her parents, which was an incredible experience. Jill and I, when we first met, I was really clear. I’d always known that I wanted to be a parent, and Jill knew that. And, um, at that point in her life, she had sort of decided not to go down that path.
Nishta Mehra:
So when we were first together, it was kind of a conversation of, “Is this something you could see yourself being open to?” I was still really young at the time, so we were not in a hurry. So we sort of said, “Okay, we’re going to kind of sit with us and see where it takes us.” And over the years, um, Jill became really drawn to the idea of adoption and the idea of being adoptive parents and providing a home for a child who needed one. That was different than what I had envisioned when I was younger. I had already lined up a sperm donor when I was like 20, which is, you know, I figured I needed to “grandfather in” before my friend Wayne, like, found the love of his life so that he could explain to her, you know, like, “Hey, I made this agreement with my friend when we were 20.” And to his credit, he took two months to think about it and then called back to tell me yes.
Nishta Mehra:
But I let him off the hook. Adoption was a journey, a pathway that I felt excited about going down. I have a couple of close friends who were adopted as babies and, um, just hearing their story and learning about their families was definitely something that I felt like, yeah, this is something I could do. Certainly not fully knowing what the journey entails and learning along the way. A lot of things about adoption as an industry that you know are difficult truths. I mean, I think the thing about it is that the industry reflects society in a lot of ways. And so probably is behind like much of corporate America, right? Sort of lags behind or, or is not as quick to change. I think adoption is an industry where you still see vestiges of the racism and discrimination present in our society. Um, in terms of, when you look at the breakdown, demographically of children who are considered quote-unquote “More difficult to place than others,” those tend to be non-white children.
Nishta Mehra:
And then of course, in terms of who has access to adoption, which kinds of parents and families. And we were very lucky. My wife and I were very lucky to work with a private agency that specialized in what’s called non-traditional adoptions. So adoption to single parents, adoption to non-married straight couples or not straight couples, nonmarried couples. And then, at the time same-sex couples because we couldn’t get married. So we picked our agency for that reason, knowing that they would be supportive and we wouldn’t have to hide or pretend or act like we were roommates, but it was an expensive decision to do that. We were lucky to have financial support from family as we were looking for resources. So many of the places that offer money and funding are religiously affiliated and they don’t provide those things to same-sex couples. So, you know, again, lots of learning along the way, some rude awakening, a similar experience to Tati that my wife needed to adopt as a second parent. I was the first adoptive parent, but because we couldn’t be married and we weren’t, we did not have a legal relationship, she had to adopt separately. So there was definitely extra expense and time. And, and some turmoil added to that in terms of, you know, our lawyer recommended that Jill not come to the initial adoption when I adopted Shiv. It was really intense. Yeah. And really emotional to try to think about how all of that worked. And sort of like, this is a hoop that we have to jump through in order to protect our family. Right. Like Tati was saying, I think, you know, you, you try not to think too much about it and you’re going to do what you need to do to protect your family. And it’s so infuriating. We were very lucky that our, uh, Jill’s second-parent adoption was done in a very family-friendly court in San Antonio. They actually do a ton of second-parent adoptions there and they’re super queer-friendly.
Nishta Mehra:
We had a lovely judge. We took all the pictures and did all the things. We had friends drive up from Houston to meet us there. And we went out to eat Mexican food, you know, on the Riverwalk. And it was great. So we did get to have sort of the picture-perfect celebration at the end, but certainly, there was a lot of strife in between. And I acknowledged that we were very lucky in terms of the agency we worked within the fact that our birth mom and her family were super supportive and thrilled and had no issue with the fact that we were a same-sex couple. So that’s our adoption story. We have a not super traditional addition to our family. About a year ago, one of my students, Jesus—he had stayed with us from time to time—was living in a group home and he would come stay with us for holidays.
Nishta Mehra:
And he spent about six weeks with us over the summer and really started to feel like he was part of our family. And it’s been almost exactly a year. It was November 11th that he moved in officially to our house. He lives with us full-time. Shiv calls him her chosen brother and Jill and I became his legal guardians. Not long after he moved in—he’s close with his birth mom and birth family, and she agreed to have us have the guardianship so that we can make decisions for him and take him to the doctor and things like that. So he’ll be 18 in February. So then he’ll be a legal adult at that point, but we hope that we’ll continue to be a part of his family going forward. So now there are four of us.
Emily McGranachan:
Oh, well, that’s beautiful. And just big celebration and warm wishes your family on that, you know, year anniversary that you have. Um, that’s lovely. Something that has been really interesting to me is hearing from adoptees, talking about the possibilities of ethical adoption and how that is possible, but it’s so often not the reality that a lot of people experience. So as you were identifying what agency you could work with, wanted to work with, what were those specific things that you were looking for that made you feel like you found the right agency, and then even what was, were there things that you still feel are missing through that—through adoption and foster care processes—which I agree are fraught?
Nishta Mehra:
Very fraught. And I think, you know, it’s so uncomfortable to talk about in the sense that often that can feel very transactional, right. In terms of how we think about it. And even the way that we tell stories about it. There’s so much erasure of birth families in that narrative. So much oversimplifying, I think, right? So many people wanted us to be like heroes. I mean, I can’t tell you how many times people have said, you know, like, “Oh, that’s such a great thing that you did.” It’s like, we wanted to have a kid. Like, I mean, it wasn’t particularly, it wasn’t nobler than getting pregnant. Like I don’t…you know? Um, Or [they say] that Shiv is so lucky, you know, or Jesus is so lucky. It’s like, we’re lucky, right? Like this is a relationship.
Nishta Mehra:
There’s mutuality here. And I think, again, you know, when we strip things down and flatten them, we take away that nuance and the complexity. So, we did get very lucky with our agency. Some of the things that I looked for —knowing whatever I knew at the time, which was certainly not the full story, but—centering of birth moms was really important to me and birth families. We’re, you know, not always exclusively talking about just birth moms, but often we’re talking about moms. In our case, Shiv’s birth father was not involved in the process, but our agency did work with birth families. And what we really appreciated about the work that they did was the social work and the centering of birth mother’s experience. So it was not transactional, you know, “Thanks for the baby. Here’s some cash!” There was an educational component involved.
Nishta Mehra:
There was real social work with the birth moms sort of advocating for them, figuring out where they were in their lives, how they had gotten to the place where they were, and how the agency could provide some support for them in terms of what happened next. So the visits that happened between the social worker and the birth mom predated our coming into the picture and post-dated that. Also, our agency has a scholarship fund for birth mothers who are interested in going back to school or pursuing degrees, which his birth mom did. And so we just really felt like it was important for that to be a component of the agency we worked with and also for our own story to confront that reality, right? That this is a real human person who is doing in—her case, right?—a difficult thing that she felt like was the right thing to do but was still very hard.
Nishta Mehra:
We wanted to honor that and we wanted to center that, and we never wanted her story to be hidden or a secret. We never wanted Shiv to “accidentally” find out. We never wanted there to be any shame around how our family was built, because I don’t think that there should be any shame about it. In terms of things that maybe were missing or that I still think we need to have a lot of conversation about, they mostly have to do with race and white or non-Black parents adopting Black children. I think as the non-Black parent of a Black child, I can say that there is a huge learning curve and there should be. And even as prepared as I was to take on that learning curve, there’s still so much. I think folks really need to step into that space with a clear awareness. Colorblindness doesn’t help anybody in that situation.
Nishta Mehra:
It’s so damaging for kids. You hear really scary narratives of kids who end up in these families where their identity is essentially ignored or pretended like it doesn’t exist until they are adults. And they have to sort of fend for themselves. Those conversations—again, it’s a mirror—we’re not great at those conversations as a society. So it makes sense that in an industry, we’re not doing a super great job about it either. But I’ve started to read and hear more about agencies that do mandatory training, that do anti-racist education, that talk about the experiences of adoptees of color. And I think that that’s so critical. So I hope to see that continue. Yeah. I hope that adoptees will continue to share their stories. Not that they’re obligated to, but I’m so grateful when they do, because I’ve learned so much from reading those narratives and hearing from folks about their experiences.
Emily McGranachan:
Yeah, absolutely. I know we’ll link in the show notes, but Tony Hynes is a fantastic writer and activist and adoptee who I think about two years ago wrote this really powerful article called why we shouldn’t call adoptees lucky that really hits on a lot of what you’re saying, Nishta. So I will link that there. And we also have previous podcast episodes that really centered some of those adoptees’ stories. They’re really very much what you’re talking about. But one thing I would like to ask both of you is how do you talk about adoption in your home? How do you, how do you tell your family story with your kids? What are those conversations like? And then how do you, and how maybe do they, talk about it outside of the home then too?
Tatiana Quiroga:
With our, with our boys, it’s an ongoing conversation kind of like I was saying, like, we always want to make sure, you know, there is no shame in any of the stories of how they came to be, how we came to be, and that whole entire process and to where we are now. So, you know, obviously, Lukas being a little bit older at nine, we started those conversations pretty early. And it’s, it’s really hard to have to explain that—where you have to explain like where the laws were and how, you know, people, you know, saw his family and the things that we needed to do. And the hoops that we had to jump through and paperwork is, you know, a touchy subject for us because it always depends, like, who’s filling it out. Because some paperwork will say my wife birthed them. And then, you know, some will say that you know, I adopted them. So it is, it is kind of…there’s that gray area in that, but we definitely see the value in making sure that we start these conversations early. And we always try to make sure that we create that space for them to be able to come and ask questions and make sure that they are appropriately informed age-appropriately to where they need to be. But just making sure that again, we’re always creating space to have these continuous conversations.
Emily McGranachan:
Something that’s just going around in my head is talking about these previous legal barriers and social barriers to LGBTQ+ families and talking about that with your kids because you don’t want them to feel any kind of shame. So there’s talking about the history that maybe the kids don’t necessarily experience and I’m interested in why that feels important to you to acknowledge even with young children or—not even “even,” but like for young children. And then also knowing how as the parent, as an adult, you, you know…how other people may treat or react to our families and you want to prepare your kid for that. For others, trying to have them feels any kind of shame or discomfort or surprise or anything like that, you have to anticipate the negative in some way, right? Like I’m trying to get at…
Tatiana Quiroga:
Right. Exactly. And it’s…I kind of look at it as a two-fold conversation because of what you were saying, like acknowledging the past, I think is super important. And one of the things that, you know, actually Emily working with you that has really brought to light is like, this is the culture that they are growing up in. The LGBTQ culture and community is really a huge part and center of not just our family, but who we are as a couple and who we are as individuals, obviously what I do for a living. So making sure that they’re educated on that in our history so they’re able to also educate out. My nine-year-old and his friend, they’re video chatting and playing video games together, and somehow—the other little boy is nine too—they got on the election. My nine-year-old friend said something about Trump and that he was pro-Trump.
Tatiana Quiroga:
And so Lukas jumped in and said, well, you know, we’re, you know, my household was voting for Biden and Lukas jumped in and was like, “Trump does not like families like mine,” and went into this whole explanation. And, and the little boy was like, “Well, do you even know what gay is?” And so Lucas was “Very much like, yeah.” You know, and actually explained it to him. And then he finished it with “like my moms.” And so the little boy at that point didn’t know what else to say. And they’re nine. So like it was squashed, and they kept going playing video games. It was like such a, like “something’s working” moment for us. That’s the kind of advocacy we want him to carry. And that’s also why it’s so important to educate him on the past and the present and how to speak about his family and who his family is, and you know, the struggles and the triumphs that we’ve had. Because to me, it’s moments like those. And like you were saying, anticipating, you know, the negatives…obviously we don’t want to paint this gloom world ahead of him, but at the same time we want to equip him and give him the tools to be able to speak up for himself, speak up for us, speak up for his family and come, you know, come from a place of confidence and knowing that you know, who we are, who he is, where we’ve come from and where he can go. So that, that was kind of one of those like aha moments that actually, you know, parenting win! It works! But yeah, it’s, to me, it’s a twofold conversation where it’s, you know, we’re, we talk about the past—where we’ve been, you know, as a family, as a community, as a movement—and then also too, you know, where he fits in that. And then where we’re going, I think is, is huge.
Nishta Mehra:
You know, we call those parenting fist bumps in my family.
Tatiana Quiroga:
They don’t come often, but when they do man—
Nishta Mehra:
You gotta recognize, right? When, when they happen. For sure. Yeah. I think going along with what Tati is saying, you know, this sort of culture of, of advocacy and of, of being informed. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things that I try to think about a lot—and it’s a question I can’t answer, right?—is would we be, would we feel as convicted about making sure that Shiv has a clear sense of history and of the way that things are in the world (good and bad, right?) if she weren’t a trans girl, a black girl, you know, somebody with two moms, part of an interracial family, all of those things? I think a big thing for us is not to make parenting decisions based off, out of fear. Right? Um, nobody makes good choices out of fear. And it’s very tempting as a parent to make all kinds of choices based on fear.
Nishta Mehra:
And fear is a legitimate, reasonable feeling to have, because it’s terrifying to have a, you know, set your child out into the world and not be able to control what’s going to happen. And that’s what you sign up for. We try to make values-based decisions and think about what the reality is balanced out with what we hope that Shiv can have in terms of an ability to advocate for herself and feel secure in her own reality. And I think, you know, we obviously have a lot of privileges that allow us to surround her with people who support her. We are able to send her to a private school. She’s been able to go to camps and participate in acting programs where she doesn’t have to worry about keeping parts of her identity secret. Right. And so you know, by the time she was old enough for anybody to say anything to her, her attitude was sort of like, “I got two moms and it works for me.”
Nishta Mehra:
And if it doesn’t work for you, that’s kind of a you problem, you know? Like sort of what didn’t make sense to her was people who didn’t get it. Right? Like her life made sense to her. So if you didn’t get it, that was on you. She’s still, um, kinda marches around like that. This is also personality-wise, very much who she is, but she’s always known that she was adopted. Her birth mother has always been part of the narrative that we’ve told. Her pictures are in Shiv’s baby book. Um, and we are very lucky to be back in contact with Shiv’s birth mom. And so they’ve gotten to exchange pictures and she looks just like her birth mama. So it’s really sweet and special. They get to see pictures of her birth mom and, and for her birth mom to say, you know, “Let her know that I’m proud of her” when we share news and things like that.
Nishta Mehra:
So I think, you know, what it requires and has required for me certainly, is giving up on wanting a narrative that looks sort of like everybody else’s. And I think at its best, right, that’s what queerness is supposed to be about, right? That we were not trying to do what everybody else does. We want the same rights as everybody else, but we’re, we’re not, we don’t need to do things the same way. Right? In fact, what we, I think, offer as a community as like: Here are 25 different ways that love looks. Here are 25 different ways that family looks. There’s not just this one path. And I think if anything, becoming an adoptive parent has really pushed me farther into that, claiming that identity that “No, my family doesn’t look or work like everybody else’s. And I’m totally good with that.” You know, I don’t need, I don’t have anything that I need to prove, but I definitely did have to do, I think, some work when she was younger to push past that sort of desire to have quote-unquote “What everybody else has.”
Tatiana Quiroga:
And I can definitely echo that as the, as the non-bio-parent/non-gestational carrier parenting by a whole right. What our society tells us is that there is, you know, there’s a very strong biological connection and, you know, blood is thicker than water. And so we, we, I feel like we, we grow up with these messages of what families are and what parenting is supposed to be, and who’s got whose eyes, and “They do this just like, you know, uncle so-and-so”. And so not having that and realizing that your, your family won’t have that. And that, like Nishta was saying where it’s, it’s traditional in a way that we, at least myself, didn’t receive those messages growing up and having to break through those barriers and then be okay with it as a parent kind of as the train’s moving because you can’t figure that stuff out before you’re a parent, you know? You figure it out as you’re going, you know, with the kid already looking back at you and trying to figure out, you know, your own relationship and what, what does it mean to be a parent and realizing at the same time, you know, there are societal expectations that come with that, and you’re not meeting those.
Tatiana Quiroga:
And, you know, there’s definitely a lot of work to be done in that. And there’s also a lot of challenges too, you know, because there’s a lot of expectations and a lot of people have very strong definitions of what families should look like, but I can definitely echo, you know, we, we, as a culture have always broken those barriers and we’re happy to do so sometimes, but it, it definitely is still a challenge.
Emily McGranachan:
Yeah. Can I ask, when you talk about the culture and, and all of those things, can I ask you what you were meaning by that in particular? I’m thinking about how, like different cultures around the world have different relationships to kinship care and foster care and, and biology. And so when you say that, are you, like, what are you sort of referring to? Also know, like, as an immigrant you’ve, you’ve shared before in previous podcasts episodes, there are different pushes and pull on your own identity. So when you think about culture, like how does that factor, is it American? Is it white dominant culture? Like what is some of that?
Tatiana Quiroga:
I think for me, it’s kind of both. Like, I mean, obviously, like, as you said, you know, immigrating to the United States, um, at an early age, but yet having, you know, having very strong Latino roots and, you know, the Latino culture is very family-oriented. Family is huge. And, you know, multi-generational relationships are huge and, and having those bonds. And a lot of that also comes with machismo and masculine toxicity. And a lot of that is passed down from generation to generation to generation. And even, you know, add religion to that being that it’s a very Catholic culture and, you know, what relationship, what marriage should look like, what, you know, families should look like, the hierarchy in the families. Those are very strong things that get passed down. And, and obviously, particularly in my family was very much passed down, being that, you know, we—my parents and I—we obviously immigrated to the United States, but then also too outside of that, we see that in a very white American culture too.
Tatiana Quiroga:
Um, you know, one of the things that are coming to mind which Nishta talks about in her book is, you know, those families stick figures on the back of those minivans that you see, you know, that, that to me is a pure example of what we see as the American white culture. I, you know, I’ve always wanted to get one of those and like color them in in rainbow. Um, I just never taken the time to do that, but, you know, but for a very long time, I would look at those and be like, I’m not included in that. Like, how would I even represent my wife who identifies as Butch and very much appears as gender nonconforming? You know, like, like that family does not, you know, that stick family very much does not represent my family. Things like that. It really is an overall message in my whole, you know, overall theme and journey are really having to straddle the line between two cultures. But I feel like that message for me came through very strong on both cultures and in particular the Latino culture where we see so much of that just wrapped up in absolutely everything.
Emily McGranachan:
Florida is politically challenging right now for you, Tati. I know you have shared some of that previously. So how are you feeling with the current political climate and various federal and state laws that are impacting LGBTQ families? I mean the Supreme court the day after the election just heard the Fulton vs the City of Philadelphia case that really could have some big impacts on LGBTQ adoption and the, and essentially arguing whether or not adoption and foster care agencies have the constitutional right to turn away and not consider prospective parents based on some sort of religiously held belief, which is essentially like, can they discriminate against LGBTQ people, right. How are you feeling right now? Um, how does that, you know, how is your family feeling right now?
Tatiana Quiroga:
We’re in a lot of mixed feelings. Obviously, we’re excited with the, you know, the presidential results. And so that clearly feels like a big win, but like you were saying at the, at the local level for us and the state level for us, you know, in Florida it’s still pretty scary. Just a couple of weeks ago, we—my wife and I—were approached by Equality Florida to be able to actually join the campaign for our local County representative. There was one of the politicians, um, who was actually trying to reinstate the LGBTQ adoption ban, um, so Equality Florida, you know, approached us and asked if we can join the campaign and do some media stuff, and we could do a commercial to, you know, obviously advocate for the democratic candidate that wasn’t for that and was trying to go against, you know, these efforts.
Tatiana Quiroga:
And we lost. So knowing now that there is, you know, again, the adoption ban is on the radar and, you know, being, being already talked about again in certain circles and the rumors are out and, and knowing that that is something that could come back is very real for us, where it wouldn’t necessarily impact our specific family. We know that that would directly impact, you know, so many families that we know, you know? I run the local LGBTQ family group here. And so we see all different kinds of families who, you know, people that are just started forming them to people that haven’t done the second parent adoption yet, you know, people that are moving into the state. So, we know that this would be a huge blow to the LGBTQ+ community in Florida. So…
Emily McGranachan:
And it feels like didn’t we settle this? Like, like should LGBTQ people be able to adopt? Like, we, enough years have passed that you’re like, “This is…how is this still—I mean, how was it ever debated, but like—how is this still a discussion?
Tatiana Quiroga:
It’s a little terrifying, you know. It’s, it’s a little terrifying and we still have to remind ourselves like once in a while, it’d be like, no, our adoption is final. Like, there’s nothing that can turn it around, you know, kind of like talk ourselves a little bit off that ledge because it’s, it’s, it’s scary. It’s scary. It’s, you know, again, this is where, you know, it’s almost like again where we were right after marriage equality where people thought, “Oh, this is it. We got, you know, we got this huge win. We’re safe now, you know.” I’m kind of scared that people are going to fall back into that thinking that just because, you know, Biden won that we’re, we’re safe now. We’re totally good. And so that’s where we still have to stay, you know, equally on guard and realize our work is not even close to being done.
Emily McGranachan:
And Nishta, how are you, how are you feeling? How are conversations with your family going these days?
Nishta Mehra:
It’s an interesting time to be in Arizona, which is now purple, if not totally blue. But I think sort of what Tati points to—the precariousness—and this is because there are so many things that happen on a state level and not on a federal level, particularly around adoption and family services. And that is something that we think about as, as parents of a trans child. You know, there have been some really scary cases in the last year or so of concern, I think specifically of, of children in the foster care system who were reported on essentially because they were sort of being allowed to live into their gender identity, as opposed to being forced to stick with their biological sex. And those, those parents, those foster parents were in some cases deemed unfit or their fitness was questioned because of that. And you just think about the layers of damage happening there.
Nishta Mehra:
Um, and so in the community of parents of trans kids, there’s this sort of conversation around having a safe file, right? Like having a file of letters and documentation that demonstrate that your kid is thriving and healthy and, you know, it feels on the one hand, so paranoid to do that. And then it also feels like, well, I’m going to be really glad if we, we need it, that I have it. I’d rather have it and never use it. So we do. We have a letter from Shiv’s teacher from kindergarten and first grade. We have letters from doctors. You know, it feels—not similar to, but it reminds me of, of sort of—what Tati was talking about earlier with the adoption process, right? This like demonstration of your fitness to be a parent and knowing that most people don’t have to do that, all of that paperwork and rigmarole and, and the same thing here, right?
Nishta Mehra:
Like that we would have to demonstrate that we’re good parents because we are letting our child tell us who she is. Because she knows who she is. So I think the other thing that comes along with that is what Tati is pointing to and what you were saying, Emily, about like, “Okay, haven’t we sort of figured this out?” I mean, I think one of the things that’s hard, right, is that when we look at the popular opinion, that is kind of done, right? Like there is widespread support for LGBTQ adoption and for trans rights too. And that, you know, when you look at the numbers, right, like it’s there. Popular support is there. Um, what’s not there, right, are these legal protections at every level, right? That ensures that there can’t be a loophole or there can’t be an overturning of something, or there can’t be some sort of, you know, sort of “Never mind, you know, scrap that.”
Nishta Mehra:
And now you have to do this other jump through this other hoop. And I think, you know, if you’ve not been in an experience like that, it’s hard to sort of understand just how precarious it can feel and, and frustrating. I know, Tati used that word—frustrating—to feel like you have to, to demonstrate that you really, and truly are a family and that your parents, as an educator and a parent, there are various points of vulnerability for sure, in the community, more than one. But our, our young people are probably the, I think, the most prominent in terms of, right, kids are sort of stuck with the family they get, right? Depending on whether or not their family is supportive or open to changing, um, or learning, they will have radically different experiences, right? Whether or not they can find another adult in their life to sort of serve as that proxy or to give them the resources that they need or to provide the emotional support.
Nishta Mehra:
You know this is something that someone pointed out to me that for the most part, if you are born into a minority group, you tend to be born into a family where someone else shares that identity with you. But in adoption, that’s not necessarily the case. Right? And with an LGBTQ identity, which is something you don’t necessarily come into until later in life, you don’t necessarily have that mechanism built-in, or that guidance of like, “Here, I can show you how to do this because I’ve had to do this myself.” So, you know, when we get this argument, that folks want to deny access to people who want to be parents, right—people who want to do the work of parenting, who want to provide for kids—and, and this denial is made under the auspices of about it being what’s best for kids.
Nishta Mehra:
Like I just, I…Emily, I know you told me I couldn’t curse on the podcast, but like…I call BS, right? Because all of the science, right, shows us that for kids in particular having just one adult or having an affirming space completely changes their mental health outcomes. It slashes suicide rates more than in half being called by the pronouns you prefer. Right? All of those pieces, like having an adult to advocate for you, like…Our kids need that. And if we’re really about serving, you know, kids and saying, we’re going to do what’s best for kids, we want the broadest possible pool. We want, of course, we want to vet people and make sure they’re going to be responsible parents, but to block people because of an identity category that kids themselves may find that they belong to, right, is to me, it’s just, it’s reprehensible. And it’s so frustrating that we have kids in the foster care system, and then people are being turned away or discouraged from adopting or fostering. Because if you know anyone who’s experienced that system, as hard as the folks who work in system work to make something of it, there is no way you can convince me that that system is preferable to any home that says, “Come live with us.” Like I don’t, I don’t care if you’re a purple alien. If you’re going to love that kid and provide them a safe home, why are we not banging at your door? You know, I’m clearly going on a little rant here, but as a teacher and someone who’s seen kids go through things that they never should have had to go through without an adult in their corner because of a system that’s so broken. Yeah. It just really makes my blood boil when people act like they’re acting in the best interest of kids because they’re clearly not.
Tatiana Quiroga:
I really just want to echo the points. This really is life-saving for some youth. Exactly. Like, you know, what’s already been pointed out that we know LGBTQ youth and trans youth experience higher levels of suicide, higher levels of abuse in foster care. But we just know that it’s truly harmful not to acknowledge this experience that LGBTQ youth have. And it really impacts their future of how well adjusted are they going to be, you know, as adults. You know, what happens to these kiddos and making sure that we find homes that are going to be a good fit and going to be safe for them and realizing that by cutting that pool down, all we’re doing is causing more harm and more trauma and more damage.
Tatiana Quiroga:
And it just simply does not make sense. It’s almost cruel to be honest with you, that these kiddos and these youth, you know, these children aren’t given an opportunity to be able to thrive and really aren’t set up for success. And then, you know, they’re not set up for success, what are going to be their options? We see obviously the pipeline that then we get into the criminal justice system. And so I really…it’s heartbreaking to see, and definitely frustrating to see that, you know, lawmakers are completely missing the point on what is best for these children.
Emily McGranachan:
Yes. Yeah. I’m vigorously nodding. Like, Oh my gosh. Yes! Uh, I’m completely with both of you. Like I could just keep going, but we’re going to link to lots of resources and help folks kind of continue the conversation because this is some serious stuff. It’s impacting so many young people. The rate is around 30% of young people in the foster care system identify as LGBTQ. Like almost 30%! That’s disproportionately high. So we know the more people that you have to love you, to be at your table, to be in your corner…It’s like, that just seems like the better—anything else is just counter-intuitive. But, any final thoughts or anything that we didn’t get to that you wanted to just say in the last few minutes?
Nishta Mehra:
Yeah. I just wanted to, um, add to something that, that Tati said earlier about this sort of idea that we reach certain milestones or markers, and then kind of feel like, “Oh, okay, we’re done.” Or we kind of, “We got to where we needed or wanted to be.” Not to say that we shouldn’t celebrate those milestones. Absolutely. Um, I think it’s so critical to do that and to acknowledge progress and acknowledge what has changed and that things have moved. And I think we really do a disservice all around to become complacent. I have a friend who’s a school counselor, and he in the last three weeks has had three different students who’ve been kicked out of their houses after coming out to parents. So if we pretend like this is a world where that doesn’t happen anymore…One, we’re not living in reality. And two, we’re not able to do the work that we say we’re committed to doing, right? Like if, especially, I think as adults who now have families, like we’ve made it. Like we have good lives, right? We did the things, our parents were afraid we wouldn’t be able to do, right. We have employment protection and I can put my wife on my health insurance and…right? All of those victories are victories. And it is my responsibility to show up for the folks in our community who don’t have that. And I think that that is advocacy and that work is not optional to me because I couldn’t have gotten to where I am without the folks who came before and broke the ground that they did. And I just think we have to keep pushing and not feel satisfied with where we’ve gotten so far.
Tatiana Quiroga:
I completely agree with that. And I’d love to add too, uh, calling on allies. This is something that, you know, we’ve gotten where we are in the LGBTQ movement because of our efforts and then also with the allies that we’ve been able to count on. And I think that momentum has to continue for the LGBTQ youth—particularly those in foster care. And so we really can’t do this alone as you know, LGBTQ adults. We really need our allies to come in and, you know, acknowledge their privilege, use that privilege to help push that needle. They have a fundamental part in our movement. They always have, and we need them just as much now as we did four years ago. And that’s going to be a huge tool for us.
Nishta Mehra:
Absolutely. That’s such a critical point Tati. I’m really glad you made that.
Emily McGranachan:
Yeah. Well, gosh, thank you both so much. Thank you, Tati. Thank you, Nishta, for your time and your story. And big hugs to your family. And I know you both were celebrating family and family anniversaries, so just big, big warm wishes to both of you and a lot of gratitude. Thank you both.
Tatiana Quiroga:
Thank you!
Emily McGranachan:
To keep this conversation going with your family, with your friends at the dinner table, in the car, over zoom, whatever it may be, here are our two topics for further conversation: What are some positive depictions of adoption that you and your family have come across in shows, movies, books, or art? Where are there any depictions of adoption that weren’t so great? And why? What is it that makes a depiction and a story of adoption positive and what could be improved upon? And then just the basic question of what makes a family and how can your family update some of the language you use and the activities you do to celebrate and recognize even more kinds of families? Just an opportunity for some family reflection. Well, those are the questions, and we hope that this is just a starting point for conversations for all of our listeners. And we really appreciate you listening, and you can connect with Family Equality at familyequality.org. And you can also find us on social media @FamilyEquality on Facebook and Instagram. And we are @Family_Equality on Twitter. Rate review us, subscribe to the podcast on your podcast-listener of choice. It really does help us get out there to more folks and we want more queer families finding us. So we appreciate your help. Thanks for listening!